<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: More on the BBC and Wikipedia</title>
	<atom:link href="http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:36:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Steve Bowbrick</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-374</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowbrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-374</guid>
		<description>So, Seth, what should we (all of us, not just the BBC) do about Wikipedia&#039;s shortcomings? Should we absent ourselves and perhaps even start to build a parallel entity that&#039;s better governed and designed? or should we roll up our sleevs and engage with the Jimbo-tron to improve it? Is Wikipedia an eccentrically-governed public good or an irredeemably broken private monopoly? I certainly favour the former interpretation and will continue to advocate engagement and a mature effort to positively influence Wikipedia&#039;s future form.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Seth, what should we (all of us, not just the BBC) do about Wikipedia&#8217;s shortcomings? Should we absent ourselves and perhaps even start to build a parallel entity that&#8217;s better governed and designed? or should we roll up our sleevs and engage with the Jimbo-tron to improve it? Is Wikipedia an eccentrically-governed public good or an irredeemably broken private monopoly? I certainly favour the former interpretation and will continue to advocate engagement and a mature effort to positively influence Wikipedia&#8217;s future form.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Scott</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-365</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-365</guid>
		<description>Just a minor point on the &quot;wikipedia ain&#039;t the semantic web&#039; thing. 

It&#039;s worth remembering that DBpedia extracts structured information from Wikipedia and publishes it as Linked Data on the Web (as RDF). Most folk would agree that DBpedia is very much the backbone/ nucleus of the Web of Data. So in a sense wikipedia (or at least a version of it) is part of the semantic web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a minor point on the &#8220;wikipedia ain&#8217;t the semantic web&#8217; thing. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth remembering that DBpedia extracts structured information from Wikipedia and publishes it as Linked Data on the Web (as RDF). Most folk would agree that DBpedia is very much the backbone/ nucleus of the Web of Data. So in a sense wikipedia (or at least a version of it) is part of the semantic web.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-351</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 06:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-351</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t say you shouldn&#039;t &quot;build systems that click together with Wikipedia&quot;, if by that you mean avoiding gratuitous API incompatibility and similar. I do say, most strongly, that you should not pour money into an organization so as to prop up its deliberate lack of quality assurance, and trade-offs it makes to favor those with time to waste over those with expert knowledge. Which said organization will then in effect use to turn around and trumpet how such  poor design choices are correct, because it can get suckers like YOU to devote public money to clean up the messes it creates simply because it&#039;s prominent.

Basically, you should get something back for a bail-out, rather than validating the strategy of risky operating.

There are surely more worthy uses  of resources in these tough times than looking at a current market leader and jumping on its bandwagon.


&quot;Inside, Wikipedia is more like a sweatshop than Santa&#039;s workshop&quot;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/dec/06/wikipedia

   For all Jimmy Wales&#039;s self-promotion regarding his supposed ability to
   build good communities, it&#039;s apparent his skill is instead in knowing
   how to sell a dysfunctional community effectively. One subtext of the
   Wikipedia hype is that businesses can harvest an eager pool of free
   labour, disposable volunteers who will donate effort for the sheer joy
   of it. The fantasy is somewhat akin to Santa&#039;s workshop, where little
   elves work happily away for wages of a glass of milk and a cookie.
   Whereas the reality is closer to an exploitative cult running on
   sweatshop labour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t say you shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;build systems that click together with Wikipedia&#8221;, if by that you mean avoiding gratuitous API incompatibility and similar. I do say, most strongly, that you should not pour money into an organization so as to prop up its deliberate lack of quality assurance, and trade-offs it makes to favor those with time to waste over those with expert knowledge. Which said organization will then in effect use to turn around and trumpet how such  poor design choices are correct, because it can get suckers like YOU to devote public money to clean up the messes it creates simply because it&#8217;s prominent.</p>
<p>Basically, you should get something back for a bail-out, rather than validating the strategy of risky operating.</p>
<p>There are surely more worthy uses  of resources in these tough times than looking at a current market leader and jumping on its bandwagon.</p>
<p>&#8220;Inside, Wikipedia is more like a sweatshop than Santa&#8217;s workshop&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/dec/06/wikipedia" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/dec/06/wikipedia</a></p>
<p>   For all Jimmy Wales&#8217;s self-promotion regarding his supposed ability to<br />
   build good communities, it&#8217;s apparent his skill is instead in knowing<br />
   how to sell a dysfunctional community effectively. One subtext of the<br />
   Wikipedia hype is that businesses can harvest an eager pool of free<br />
   labour, disposable volunteers who will donate effort for the sheer joy<br />
   of it. The fantasy is somewhat akin to Santa&#8217;s workshop, where little<br />
   elves work happily away for wages of a glass of milk and a cookie.<br />
   Whereas the reality is closer to an exploitative cult running on<br />
   sweatshop labour.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Roo Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>Roo Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-349</guid>
		<description>Steve said
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;It might be more interesting ... to package Roo’s guidance and publish it under a creative commons licence so that it can be used and extended by others&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As it happens, posts on my blog are already licensed under a &lt;a href=&quot;http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Creative Commons&lt;/a&gt; licence.

Benjamin Ells said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;What is on Roo’s blog is under Roo’s control. If Roo moves on to another employer ... and there are pointers to the information on his blog, what then?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No matter what happens to me, I don&#039;t see what that post would change or go anywhere. You&#039;re right to be nervous though. That&#039;s why it&#039;s not only on my blog, it&#039;s also on an internal wiki where anyone in the BBC can continue to build on it whatever happens. Of course, if there&#039;s ever a more obvious place to put those sorts of notes externally (I expect the FM&amp;T standards &amp; guidelines site &lt;i&gt;isn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; it, but I might be wrong) then I&#039;m up for that too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve said</p>
<blockquote><p><i>It might be more interesting &#8230; to package Roo’s guidance and publish it under a creative commons licence so that it can be used and extended by others</i></p></blockquote>
<p>As it happens, posts on my blog are already licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/uk/" rel="nofollow">Creative Commons</a> licence.</p>
<p>Benjamin Ells said:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>What is on Roo’s blog is under Roo’s control. If Roo moves on to another employer &#8230; and there are pointers to the information on his blog, what then?</i></p></blockquote>
<p>No matter what happens to me, I don&#8217;t see what that post would change or go anywhere. You&#8217;re right to be nervous though. That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s not only on my blog, it&#8217;s also on an internal wiki where anyone in the BBC can continue to build on it whatever happens. Of course, if there&#8217;s ever a more obvious place to put those sorts of notes externally (I expect the FM&amp;T standards &amp; guidelines site <i>isn&#8217;t</i> it, but I might be wrong) then I&#8217;m up for that too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Bowbrick</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-346</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowbrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-346</guid>
		<description>The fascinating thing about Wikipedia is that it’s become so important even with such patently screwy governance. But we shouldn’t really be surprised: the net has many screwy systems of governance to choose from. From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icann.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ICANN&lt;/a&gt;’s peculiar planetary democracy to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ietf.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IETF&lt;/a&gt;’s ‘running code and rough consensus’ to the various feudal systems and monarchies that govern the big open source projects and the host of corporate and national monopolies that control big chunks of the infrastructure: the whole thing looks more like Mediaeval Europe than an enlightened post-industrial community of mind. The net’s barely been out of the universities for fifteen years and it’s inevitable that its systems of governance are a bit... er... immature. 

And as to whether the BBC should involved with as frankly eccentric and unaccountable a project as Wikipedia, I think the answer’s easy. Of course it should. Wikipedia – like it or not – is the number one source of learning and information content on the web (at least the English-speaking web and at least in terms of raw traffic). Like I said, it’s become the backbone of the semantic web (not in any technical way, of course, as several people have pointed out) and a failure to build systems that click together with Wikipedia would just be a kind of petulance.

The critical thing is for the BBC and others is to be engaged with Wikipedia, both at the content level and – to the extent that this is appropriate – in efforts to reform the way it’s run. I think the obvious fragility of Wikipedia’s governance is the main reason to get involved. It’s not about mounting a coup or even about publicly rubbishing the current system but it’s about being present as the thing evolves and as the strains in the Jimbo-centric model become more apparent. If, as seems inevitable, Wikipedia is ultimately reformed, moved to a new ownership model, opened up to control by stakeholders or whatever, the BBC should be present in all layers of the stack to make sure it doesn’t go pear-shaped and die, taking a gazillion web links with it and gutting the semantic web as it does so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fascinating thing about Wikipedia is that it’s become so important even with such patently screwy governance. But we shouldn’t really be surprised: the net has many screwy systems of governance to choose from. From <a href="http://www.icann.org" rel="nofollow">ICANN</a>’s peculiar planetary democracy to the <a href="http://www.ietf.org/" rel="nofollow">IETF</a>’s ‘running code and rough consensus’ to the various feudal systems and monarchies that govern the big open source projects and the host of corporate and national monopolies that control big chunks of the infrastructure: the whole thing looks more like Mediaeval Europe than an enlightened post-industrial community of mind. The net’s barely been out of the universities for fifteen years and it’s inevitable that its systems of governance are a bit&#8230; er&#8230; immature. </p>
<p>And as to whether the BBC should involved with as frankly eccentric and unaccountable a project as Wikipedia, I think the answer’s easy. Of course it should. Wikipedia – like it or not – is the number one source of learning and information content on the web (at least the English-speaking web and at least in terms of raw traffic). Like I said, it’s become the backbone of the semantic web (not in any technical way, of course, as several people have pointed out) and a failure to build systems that click together with Wikipedia would just be a kind of petulance.</p>
<p>The critical thing is for the BBC and others is to be engaged with Wikipedia, both at the content level and – to the extent that this is appropriate – in efforts to reform the way it’s run. I think the obvious fragility of Wikipedia’s governance is the main reason to get involved. It’s not about mounting a coup or even about publicly rubbishing the current system but it’s about being present as the thing evolves and as the strains in the Jimbo-centric model become more apparent. If, as seems inevitable, Wikipedia is ultimately reformed, moved to a new ownership model, opened up to control by stakeholders or whatever, the BBC should be present in all layers of the stack to make sure it doesn’t go pear-shaped and die, taking a gazillion web links with it and gutting the semantic web as it does so.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Benjamin Ells</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-342</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Ells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-342</guid>
		<description>Hmm... Semantic Web Wikipedia is not - but I hope Ronnie has cleared that up. Likewise, having experienced some of the internals I&#039;d agree with Seth&#039;s comments - I really hope that the BBC doesn&#039;t have values in common with the reality of Wikipedia. I want my tax money spent in a better pursuit of accuracy.

Whilst the discussion is interesting, I would advise closer attention to the issue of editorial control. This is just as relevant on the web as it is on traditional media. What is on Roo&#039;s blog is under Roo&#039;s control. If Roo moves on to another employer (and I hope he doesn&#039;t - I appreciate what he is doing at the BBC) and there are pointers to the information on his blog, what then?

Rather than using public money to prop up Wikipedia, and a drive monoculture of knowledge on the Internet, how about adding to the diversity by linking back to valuable resources created and hosted by the BBC.

It is great to get involved in trying to correct inaccuracies in Wikipedia (and good luck with that), but using BBC time (and money) to populate it does not sound like a good idea, to me at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; Semantic Web Wikipedia is not &#8211; but I hope Ronnie has cleared that up. Likewise, having experienced some of the internals I&#8217;d agree with Seth&#8217;s comments &#8211; I really hope that the BBC doesn&#8217;t have values in common with the reality of Wikipedia. I want my tax money spent in a better pursuit of accuracy.</p>
<p>Whilst the discussion is interesting, I would advise closer attention to the issue of editorial control. This is just as relevant on the web as it is on traditional media. What is on Roo&#8217;s blog is under Roo&#8217;s control. If Roo moves on to another employer (and I hope he doesn&#8217;t &#8211; I appreciate what he is doing at the BBC) and there are pointers to the information on his blog, what then?</p>
<p>Rather than using public money to prop up Wikipedia, and a drive monoculture of knowledge on the Internet, how about adding to the diversity by linking back to valuable resources created and hosted by the BBC.</p>
<p>It is great to get involved in trying to correct inaccuracies in Wikipedia (and good luck with that), but using BBC time (and money) to populate it does not sound like a good idea, to me at least.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-341</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-341</guid>
		<description>Please see some of my _Guardian_ articles critiquing the cult of Wikipedia. Wikipedia’s values are NOT the BBC’s values -you&#039;re being fooled by slogans. Or, I don&#039;t think the BBC&#039;s value are that the most tedious and rules-lawyering person who plays backroom politics best gets to define the article content (or if so, that&#039;s a bad thing).

&quot;Wikipedia isn&#039;t about human potential, whatever Wales says&quot;


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/25/wikipedia.internet</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please see some of my _Guardian_ articles critiquing the cult of Wikipedia. Wikipedia’s values are NOT the BBC’s values -you&#8217;re being fooled by slogans. Or, I don&#8217;t think the BBC&#8217;s value are that the most tedious and rules-lawyering person who plays backroom politics best gets to define the article content (or if so, that&#8217;s a bad thing).</p>
<p>&#8220;Wikipedia isn&#8217;t about human potential, whatever Wales says&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/25/wikipedia.internet" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/25/wikipedia.internet</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Scott</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-340</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-340</guid>
		<description>You might be interested in this post: http://derivadow.com/2009/01/13/the-web-as-a-cms/ which discusses some of the work the BBC is already engaged in in contributing to wikipedia and musicbrainz i.e. using the web as a CMS.

What I didn&#039;t make explicit and which Michael picked up on in the comments is the work adding links between musicbrainz and wikipedia for the benefit of bbc.co.uk and the LOD cloud at large.

It&#039;s still early and there is much more we could/should be doing in this space... thankfully there&#039;s a lot more to come :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might be interested in this post: <a href="http://derivadow.com/2009/01/13/the-web-as-a-cms/" rel="nofollow">http://derivadow.com/2009/01/13/the-web-as-a-cms/</a> which discusses some of the work the BBC is already engaged in in contributing to wikipedia and musicbrainz i.e. using the web as a CMS.</p>
<p>What I didn&#8217;t make explicit and which Michael picked up on in the comments is the work adding links between musicbrainz and wikipedia for the benefit of bbc.co.uk and the LOD cloud at large.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s still early and there is much more we could/should be doing in this space&#8230; thankfully there&#8217;s a lot more to come <img src='http://commonplatform.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Bowbrick</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-337</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowbrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-337</guid>
		<description>@ronnie Thanks for the link. I guess I&#039;m trying to express the way people like the BBC are hooking into Wikipedia as an authoritative source - not only of data (re-using Wikipedia content on pages at /music, for instance) but also of structure. The way the BBC&#039;s /topics pages are using Wikipedia as a controlled vocabulary and re-using Wikipedia&#039;s URL structure, for instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ronnie Thanks for the link. I guess I&#8217;m trying to express the way people like the BBC are hooking into Wikipedia as an authoritative source &#8211; not only of data (re-using Wikipedia content on pages at /music, for instance) but also of structure. The way the BBC&#8217;s /topics pages are using Wikipedia as a controlled vocabulary and re-using Wikipedia&#8217;s URL structure, for instance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ronnie</title>
		<link>http://commonplatform.co.uk/index.php/2009/01/12/more-on-the-bbc-and-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-336</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplatform.co.uk/?p=242#comment-336</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Wikipedia has already become the backbone of the semantic web&lt;/i&gt;

I fear you have completely misunderstood the concept of the semantic web. Try here -

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Wikipedia has already become the backbone of the semantic web</i></p>
<p>I fear you have completely misunderstood the concept of the semantic web. Try here -</p>
<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
